Date: 2006-11-05 19:43
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

rlaager:  please stop trying to flame me.

1.  you aren't good at it, and
2.  it makes you look bad.

As for anti-social behaviour, that's a flash word you picked
up somewhere in the course of your probably long line of
flaming practice.

You aren't fooling anyone. lol.

Had your intention been to be helpful, you would have used
some discretion.  Instead, as you have acknowledged, you
assumed the role of a raging asshole.

"I understand this perfectly well, and it makes me sick."

I think that you may be using these bug reports as a vent
for frustrations in daily life.  Your (continued)
over-reaction is proof of this.  I'd recommend a
psychological evaluation to handle your anti-social behaviour.

5.  It was an error.  I have alot of...things to remember
that are much more important than feeding your troll.

Anyway, thanks for the workaround, and...I hope you get
through this...together...

pffft! lol!  Wanker.
							

Date: 2006-11-05 19:27
Sender: rlaager
Logged In: YES
user_id=156487

1. datallah did absolutely nothing wrong, no matter how
extreme of an interpretation one uses. Please don't drag him
down with me. If you want to hate me, that's fine, but don't
hate datallah because of my comments.

2. I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm calling you out on
anti-social behavior, as that's the only way to improve it.
The rest of my comment was genuinely intended to provide you
with useful information for the next time you report a bug,
here or otherwise. I realize how my tone at the beginning
may have set you off against the rest of my comments, but my
intention there was to be helpful.

3.

I said: "This would've been a most awesome way to approach
things."

To this, you responded: "No, I wanted a fix.  I got one.
You don't seem to be understanding this."

I understand this perfectly well, and it makes me sick. This
is exactly why I said part of me wished Daniel wouldn't have
given you a work-around. As I suspected would be the case,
he only validated your behavior. The next time you go to
report a bug, please don't assume that repeatedly badgering
the developers will get you results. It won't always, and in
fact, the more you do it, the less developers will be
willing to help you or others.

4. I think this exchange brings up some interesting points,
not all of which are new. I was originally going to post
here, but it got long. I'll make sure those comments get to
the developers, so that we can try to improve the bug
reporting system in the future.

5. I'm curious (and this ties into #4)... why did you think
the other bug report was closed? It clearly says, "Status:
Open". Surely you were, or became, familiar with the Status
item, as you were able to re-open this bug. If we know why
you thought it was closed, we might be able to address that
in a replacement bug reporting system.

							

Date: 2006-11-04 19:48
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

deryni9

I understand what you're trying to say.

I think...that there is never an excuse to be short with
someone.  I personally couldn't care less what rlaager's
level of expertise is.  As for equals?  We asbolutely are.
That will never not be the case.

I do relate to you, though, that their over-reactions might
have been a result of other incidents as per your
statements.  I don't know about the forums fork or other
users, but I'm sure they're very on edge by their responses
to basic human inquiries.  I hope that gets better for you guys.

My comment about motives wasn't that they didn't have the
happiness of the user (which really is the goal of any
program using a GUI, if it is good programming being done),
but that they were intentionally trying to flame users by
being obstinant and unforthcoming with explanations.

A copy and pasted answer is less rude than none at all, or
an inadequate one.  I realize that no one here is OBLIGATED
by an occupational status to be human beings, but I imagine
that simple, basic ethics when assuming the position of
developer would produce a different mindset than the one
displayed by rlaager and datallah, here.

I appreciate you taking the time to intervene, and my
confidence in the developers here was boosted by your response.

Thanks.
Chris.


							

Date: 2006-11-03 22:13
Sender: deryni9
Logged In: YES
user_id=516184

I'd like to point out a few things here.
1) You can't both say you understand the way that open source works, and
at the same time keep referring to a supervisor and an administrator, while
also talking about how users and developers of an open source project are
equals. Those things don't all get along.
2) rlaager's problem with your actions was not that you persisted, it is
how you persisted, you blatantly failed to listen to directions, and
(apparently) failed to understand what the word 'Duplicate' meant when used
in conjunction with a link to an identical bug report. Those were the
things that caused the problem, if you had been as persistant in the
correct place I seriously doubt that rlaager would have bothered getting
involved.
3) The fact that you are proud of having annoyed an answer out of someone
is not a good thing. Are you happy you have an answer? Certainly. Should
you be thankful that you got one? Also certainly. Should you consider it a
victory to have done it this way? Absolutely not.
4) Very few people have had this problem and I would guess even fewer have
asked us about it, so your having 'milked out' a solution really doesn't
save us much time. Also your insinuations that our motives should solely be
the happiness of our users portrays a misguided sense of how open source
works. (If you want much more in depth explanations of this point, feel
free to read the 'gaim fork' forum thread, and the handful of other similar
ones.)
5) Failing to listen to directions, failing to read things you are pointed
at, and generally annoying people are most certainly anti-social
activities, but that's not really relevant to the issue at hand.
6) As I said before, users and developers of an open source project are
not at all equals, the developers can expect that users that want things
fixed will act in ways that help that happen, users can not expect the
developers to expend effort just because the user asks (developers tend to
do that, but they do so because they want to not because they have to).
(Again, reference the 'gaim fork'-like threads for more if you want.)
7) I work on gaim because I enjoy doing so, I also enjoy using gaim, if
neither of those were true I wouldn't work on gaim, hundreds/thousands of
happy users notwithstanding. open source projects are made public because
the developers like sharing, very few are made public 'to make users
happy'.
This response has already gone longer than I intended so I will stop here
and simply conclude with: All sides in this case could have been handled
better, and if this bug report wasn't coming hot-on-the-heels of the 'gaim
fork' thread, and a couple other 'users making demands of the developers'
events it likely would have gone much more smoothly. However, the thing you
(as a user) need to think about, is that while this may be your first and
only interaction with the gaim developers, it is decidedly *not* our first
or only interaction with a user and as such you need to spend a little more
time thinking about our responses than you apparently did since they quite
likely have very good reason for being what they are.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 17:19
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

Ok, rlaager, I was going to ignore your tone until I read
this last comment of yours.  Do you have a supervisor that I
can contact?  You're alienating your client base if you
treat others the way you have me, here- I'm a normal user,
not a programmer, and I don't have to fit the harshness of
your little clique.  Had I known procedures were not being
followed, I would certainly have looked for them, as they
were not posted in an obvious nature.  I'm just here for a
bug report, and I'm not a programmer.

"The other bug is not closed and never was (you can verify
this from the change history at the bottom). The work-around
should not have been posted here. When this was marked a
duplicate, you should have taken the conversation to the
*other* bug report. Then the work-around could've been
posted there. The whole idea of marking things duplicate is
to force discussion into one place, so that people can see
the entire history of the issue."

Now what on earth would make you think that I would know
that?  Quit being an ass.  I'm not familiar with sourceforge
bug reporting protocol.  I'm sure that any competent idiot
could deduct that by now.

"Also, it wastes developer
time to respond to bug reports multiple times."

Right...sort of like posting a link to another bug report
that doesn't have an answer to it.  There was no workaround
on the other report.  I know for a fact that you are aware
of that.

"You were being obnoxious by continually opening this bug
report after you'd been told of another one." 

Had someone at any point said "continue this on the other
report", that certainly would not have been an issue.  I'm
starting to think that you guys swiftboat people into being
trolls on here by policy.  Good show, but I'm not buying this.

"You were also asked to stop re-opening this bug report,
TWICE, and you did
not listen. You also asked the same questions multiple
times, which doesn't help. The change history at the bottom
of this bug is the longest I've ever seen on a Gaim bug, and
you pulled that off in less than a day."

As you can see, now I have a workaround that would not have
been given to me otherwise.  I don't care, because now other
users can get around the bug.  I've done the gaim
client-base a favour.  Your complaint is invalid, and the
spawn of a childish peave.

"Also, you apparently seem to like changing the resolution
on this from Duplicate to Fixed."

Sorry, I did do that.  Once.  I hope an administrator will
see how you've been twisting the wording around, here.  I've
dealt with this kind of thing before, and it's relatively
easy to draw out.

"It's not fixed. A work-around is not a fix. This bug report
is still a duplicate of the
one referenced earlier."

I understand.

"DO NOT change the bug attributes here again."

I haven't since I have gotten my workaround.  I said that in
my last comment.  You are trolling me to have this forum
deleted.  I'm curious as to your motives, here.  I'd like to
see your supervisor mediate this for you.

"I did read all the comments, both as they happened, and
again before commenting. Daniel's first comment includes a
link to the other bug. I've posted the work-arounds he
mentioned there, so that everything useful is in one place,
where it belongs."

Thank you.

"I'm glad that he found a work-around for this, but the fact
that you harassed someone into finding it should not make
you proud."

Well, it's a bug reporting forum, and I reported a bug, and
milked an answer out.  Think of all those users who now
won't have to ask, or be dissappointed by the utter
unwillingness to help that you people have shown here.
Again, I question your motives, sir.

"Part of me wishes he wouldn't have posted a work-around at
all, to avoid validating your anti-social behavior."

Well, that's certainly not anti-social behaviour- I'm just
not kissing your ass, unfortunately for you.  If you have a
problem with that, please send me a private email and I
would be more than glad to offer a rationale- as not to take
up more precious space on this report.

"By your comments, you seem to think that we're obligated to
help you resolve the issue. We're not. This is open source."

No, but civility is really my biggest concern at this point.
 If it's open source, then why are you complaining about my
changing the status.  You aren't being paid.  That means
we're equals.  In that case, I would request that you please
kindly kiss my ass in the same nature that you expect of me.
 Monkey do, monkey see.

"You did not pay us and you've contributed in no way to
Gaim's development."

So?  why make the program if it isn't intended to be public.
 At this point I would like to request your supervisor to
administer a drug test to you, as you are making logical
fallicies and then harrassing me based on those fallacies.

"You are not specially privileged. You need to play by the
rules like everyone else."

I thought this was open source.  You have some thinking to
do....

"1. You look for existing bug reports.
2. You find the other one.
3. You comment there."

Had I known that, you would probably still be trolling me.

"OR

1. You look for existing bug reports.
2. You miss the other one (mistakes happen, and the
SourceForge search interface is NOT friendly) and post this bug.
3. You get told of the duplicate and this report is closed.
4. You comment on the other bug report."

Well, datallah just posted a link.  How am I supposed to
know that?  You guys are screwed in the head if you think
that I'd walk into this place knowing all about that.  Work
on some relations skills.

"This would've avoided irritating the very people who could
help you."

I'm content.  I got my workaround.  What would I have if I
had just settled for a link to nothing?  I would encourage
you to seek some external guidance on some of the issues
presented here regarding both of your behaviour.

"Also, in the future:

1. If there were a patch for something, the odds are almost
100% that it'd be mentioned in the bug report page. If the
patch is good, it'll be quickly committed to the mainline
development of Gaim (which will be noted in the bug, which
will be closed as fixed), and will appear in the next release."

The one that isn't user friendly?  "Swift.  Boat".

"2. There aren't special "build"s of software that give you
more options. Sure, maybe there's a couple examples of that
somewhere, but that's just not how things work. It'd be
silly to have more options in special builds. Either they're
necessary, in which case they would be in the software, or
they're not (or not implemented), in which case they don't
exist."

I was referring to a custom plugin that allowed an RGB
selection of the color value in question.  It wouldn't be
hard to do with an external app, but I didn't know if it
could be done in a gaim plugin, due to my unfamiliarity with
the programming of this program.

"3. The idea of using a custom plugin to solve a bug is
generally wrong. To me, this sounds like either a bug in
Gaim or in the WIMP theme. Nobody would spend the time to
write a plugin to work around the issue, as that take more
work than fixing the bug, since you'd still need to find the
problem and the solution and THEN implement the plugin."

Agreed....I was hoping someone had written one.  My question
about the plugin stemmed from the rather amazing
unwillingness to be helpful on these bug reports on the
representative parties assigned to them.  You know how
careless they can be.

"4. Developers aren't likely to give you a workaround they
know will break other applications, so there's no need to
mention that either."

Well, I was talking about a hot-fix until gaim fixes the bug.

"5. We get one to two e-mails per comment/settings change, so
posting little comments in rapid succession is bad form."

I couldn't possibly give a shit as a result of your
attitudes.  I will be continuing as I am in the future as
well unless my temper is resolved by understanding and
discretionary apology on your part.

Once you found out about the bug, you could've simply said,
"Do you need any more details about this problem? Is there
some testing I can do to help you resolve this issue? Are
there any work-arounds I should try? Thanks." This would've
been a most awesome way to approach things.

No, I wanted a fix.  I got one.  You don't seem to be
understanding this.

"I hope I've not wasted a bunch of time I should've been
working on other things. Please try to keep these things in
mind in the future, for Gaim and other open source projects.
Good bug reporting behavior is better for you, the
developers, other users, the project, and open-source in
general."

Apparently not.  My persistence was the only reason I got
the workaround.  I would encourage all other bug reporters
to follow up as I have to get a real resolution to their
problem, as opposed to a deferrence of liability.  

Why are you here if you don't want to help?

Let me know if you don't have access to my private email.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 14:16
Sender: rlaager
Logged In: YES
user_id=156487

The other bug is not closed and never was (you can verify
this from the change history at the bottom). The work-around
should not have been posted here. When this was marked a
duplicate, you should have taken the conversation to the
*other* bug report. Then the work-around could've been
posted there. The whole idea of marking things duplicate is
to force discussion into one place, so that people can see
the entire history of the issue. Also, it wastes developer
time to respond to bug reports multiple times.

You were being obnoxious by continually opening this bug
report after you'd been told of another one. You were also
asked to stop re-opening this bug report, TWICE, and you did
not listen. You also asked the same questions multiple
times, which doesn't help. The change history at the bottom
of this bug is the longest I've ever seen on a Gaim bug, and
you pulled that off in less than a day.

Also, you apparently seem to like changing the resolution on
this from Duplicate to Fixed. It's not fixed. A work-around
is not a fix. This bug report is still a duplicate of the
one referenced earlier.

DO NOT change the bug attributes here again.

I did read all the comments, both as they happened, and
again before commenting. Daniel's first comment includes a
link to the other bug. I've posted the work-arounds he
mentioned there, so that everything useful is in one place,
where it belongs.

I'm glad that he found a work-around for this, but the fact
that you harassed someone into finding it should not make
you proud. Part of me wishes he wouldn't have posted a
work-around at all, to avoid validating your anti-social
behavior.

By your comments, you seem to think that we're obligated to
help you resolve the issue. We're not. This is open source.
You did not pay us and you've contributed in no way to
Gaim's development. You are not specially privileged. You
need to play by the rules like everyone else. Here's how
this should've gone down...

a)
1. You look for existing bug reports.
2. You find the other one.
3. You comment there.

OR

1. You look for existing bug reports.
2. You miss the other one (mistakes happen, and the
SourceForge search interface is NOT friendly) and post this bug.
3. You get told of the duplicate and this report is closed.
4. You comment on the other bug report.

This would've avoided irritating the very people who could
help you.

Also, in the future:

1. If there were a patch for something, the odds are almost
100% that it'd be mentioned in the bug report page. If the
patch is good, it'll be quickly committed to the mainline
development of Gaim (which will be noted in the bug, which
will be closed as fixed), and will appear in the next release.

2. There aren't special "build"s of software that give you
more options. Sure, maybe there's a couple examples of that
somewhere, but that's just not how things work. It'd be
silly to have more options in special builds. Either they're
necessary, in which case they would be in the software, or
they're not (or not implemented), in which case they don't
exist.

3. The idea of using a custom plugin to solve a bug is
generally wrong. To me, this sounds like either a bug in
Gaim or in the WIMP theme. Nobody would spend the time to
write a plugin to work around the issue, as that take more
work than fixing the bug, since you'd still need to find the
problem and the solution and THEN implement the plugin.

4. Developers aren't likely to give you a workaround they
know will break other applications, so there's no need to
mention that either.

5. We get one to two e-mails per comment/settings change, so
posting little comments in rapid succession is bad form.

Once you found out about the bug, you could've simply said,
"Do you need any more details about this problem? Is there
some testing I can do to help you resolve this issue? Are
there any work-arounds I should try? Thanks." This would've
been a most awesome way to approach things.

I hope I've not wasted a bunch of time I should've been
working on other things. Please try to keep these things in
mind in the future, for Gaim and other open source projects.
Good bug reporting behavior is better for you, the
developers, other users, the project, and open-source in
general.

							

Date: 2006-11-03 12:51
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

rlaager:

I'm sure if you had read the comments from all the users involved,
that you would have noticed datallah's workaround, and my reponse
that the workaround corrected the problem.

The other bug was closed without a workaround.  It would be more
beneficial to the users to use this page including the workaround, as
opposed to the other bug, which has no resolution.  I am concluding
that under the impression that these bug reports can be used for
users to correct their bug if there is a workaround available.  In
this case there is.

I am not sure what you mean by my behaviour, or its alleged
obnoxiousness.  Please do not troll the bug reports, as it could
result in the bug report being deleted- which would keep other users
from correcting the bug on their gaim.  I have not reopened the bug
report since it's resolve.  As you can see, my persistence has
resulted in a publicly posted workaround.

I think maybe you misunderstood my intentions, and would encourage
you to use discretion in your communication in the future for the
sake of civility.

Thank you.

Both bugs are closed, if I understand right...since they are
duplicates, why not leave the one up that has the workaround on it?
It's at your discretion.  I hope you use it.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 12:39
Sender: rlaager
Logged In: YES
user_id=156487

This bug was closed because it's a duplicate, not because
it's resolved. Just because the other bug doesn't have a
solution yet doesn't mean you need to keep opening this one.
Your behavior is completely obnoxious.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 10:59
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

This bug is now resolved to my satisfaction.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 07:38
Sender: datallah
Logged In: YES
user_id=325843

Putting the following in your .gtkrc-2.0 file (e.g. in
%APPDATA%\..\.gtkrc-2.0) will give you tooltips with red
text on an ugly green background.

style "tooltips"

{

  bg[NORMAL] = "#ccffcc"

  fg[NORMAL] = "#ff0000"

}

widget "gtk-tooltips*" style "tooltips"
							

Date: 2006-11-03 00:49
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

My concern with the themes is that the other Gtk+ themes
have different window size specifications.  Under one of the
themes, gtk+ cut off the menus on my gaim client (the one
containing the bug, that this bug reporting forum is
assigned to).  WIMP seems to be compatible with exception to
the tool tip bug.

Could a plugin correct this?  I'm not sure how deeply the
plugins are allowed into the program.

The reason I have reopened the bug report, is that the bug
has not been resolved.  Neither has the other bug
(duplicate) provided in the link you presented as a resolve
for my report.  Is there another official place for support
that can assist me in resolving the bug that I have reported
here?
							

Date: 2006-11-03 00:39
Sender: datallah
Logged In: YES
user_id=325843

The workaround for now is to not use a theme with black
tooltips.
Alternatively, you can use a GTK+ theme other than WIMP.

Please stop reopening the bug.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 00:30
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

Could a custom plugin correct this?
							

Date: 2006-11-03 00:28
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

Without messing up other applications, of course.
							

Date: 2006-11-03 00:27
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

How do I fix it, then?
							

Date: 2006-11-02 22:35
Sender: datallah
Logged In: YES
user_id=325843

No, there are no patches.
Please don't mess with the bug attributes.
							

Date: 2006-11-02 22:29
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

Is there a patch for this bug?  Or maybe a build that allows
you to customize that color?  A text file containing the hex
value of the color to be used in the folder gaim uses would
be adequate for me.
							

Date: 2006-11-02 21:02
Sender: datallah
Logged In: YES
user_id=325843

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100235&aid=1231222&group_id=235
							

Date: 2006-11-02 20:07
Sender: gammamute
Logged In: YES
user_id=1636606

Hello Datallah.  Any ideas?  Maybe there's a patch for this bug?